Patrick Inniss: Dr. Taylor, you founded the history site BlackPast.org ten years ago. What were you trying to achieve, and have you accomplished your goal?
Quintard Taylor: Well, there were a variety of goals. The most important was to take African American history beyond the university classroom and make it available to the entire world. Although it was not immediately apparent, we soon learned that much of the world was surprisingly eager to receive that information and that African American history was a starting point for a much larger discussion of global African history, that is, the history of people of African ancestry throughout the world. We have a section of the website called BlackPast.org and the World which links black history to nearly 200 nations around the world. In other words, this history is far more than the story of African America or Africa. I am linking to BlackPast.org and the World here: https://www.blackpast.org/?s=and+the+world
Secondly, we believe that making the facts of African American history and global African history available to everyone will help to dispel myths and false information which are often held by blacks and non-blacks alike. We are showing the enormous accomplishments, contributions, and influence of people of African ancestry both in the U.S. and around the world, whether in the recent past (the 20th Century) or the distant past, such as ancient Egypt or the Roman Era.
We believe we are starting to accomplish that goal. In the first year of BlackPast.org’s existence (2007) 199,000 people used the website. Last year (2016) some 4.4 million people used BlackPast.org. Yet we believe there is a far greater audience that can be tapped if only they know about the existence of this enormous resource of more than 13,000 pages. We hope this interview will tap into that larger audience.
Patrick Inniss: Blackpast.org has a section dedicated specifically to African American history in the American West. As a history professor at the University of Washington this section reflects one of your specific interests. My wife and I recently watched an old episode of Rawhide, the TV western from the 1960s. The show was set in the railhead city of Sedalia, Missouri, where the cattle drive ended. We noticed that the show depicted Latinos and Asians, however black people were conspicuously absent despite their presence in Sedalia at that time, apparently sometime around 1870. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the exclusion of black people in many of the popular depictions of American history.
Quintard Taylor: You, through your question, have touched on one fundamental reason for the existence of BlackPast.org. It exists to change the narrative simply by reflecting the truth, to challenge with facts and evidence the idea that African Americans were not involved in the cattle drives from Texas to Sedalia, Missouri or the Kansas towns. In fact, African Americans were at one point the majority of cowboys in Texas (the 1850s) and in the 1860s, 1870s, and 1880s they participated in almost every cattle drive to the north. Even earlier, in the 1850s, they were involved in cattle drives to New Orleans.
We have an entire section on African American history in the West on BlackPast.org devoted precisely to the effort to ensure that people of African ancestry are not left out of the narrative. It is ironic that Rawhide prides itself on introducing the first black characters into its TV series, but it is apparently unware of the fact that without black Texas cowboys in the 1860s to 1880s there would not have been trail drives to the north which are the premise of the show. This is just one example of why BlackPast.org is necessary. It is there to provide information that challenges the long dominant but also incorrect historical narrative that all the cowboys were white. Here is the link to our section on the African American West.
Patrick Inniss: The role of African American churches has at times been controversial, with some critics, particularly during the Black Power movement in the 1960s, suggesting that Christian churches and religion in general were utilized in the oppression of black people, while others viewed churches as essential institutions. Certainly churches in America have historically reflected the same racial divisions as the country in general, but lately there have been some signs of old racial barriers coming down, particularly marked by the Southern Baptist Convention calling for racial reconciliation in 1995, and today we see more integrated congregations than ever before. In the future do you see the role of African American churches becoming more or less important in the African American community?
Quintard Taylor: I think it is virtually impossible to generalize about African American churches in any historical period. In the late 1700s, the African Methodist Episcopal Church, the only major Christian denomination founded by African Americans, took an activist role especially in the Northern states, against the institution of slavery and on behalf of the struggle by blacks to achieve full human rights. On the other hand there were more politically conservative black Baptist, Presbyterian, and Methodist Churches in the North that were less active. Black Baptist Churches in the South engaged in virtually no political activity although it is not clear if that was reflective of their beliefs or the reality of the price they would pay for such activity in a region politically dominated by slaveholders.
In the 20th Century, during the civil rights era, we see other divisions including the creation of the Progressive Baptist Convention by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and other political activists who chafed at the conservatism of the National Black Baptist Convention led by Rev. Joseph H. Jackson. Of course, much could be said for white churches, as well, with many of them taking an activist role in the movement for racial justice and racial reconciliation while other churches, sometimes only a few blocks away, adhering to the idea that church leaders and their congregations should not engage in “politics.”
Ironically it was the model of the activist black churches involved in the civil rights movement that inspired conservative (often fundamentalist) white and black churches to energize a reemerging conservative political movement beginning in the late 1970s. Those churches embrace politics, but it is a much more conservative or reactionary politics revolving around issues like taxes, abortion, opposition to gay rights, and a push back against what they see as the liberal agenda of both activist churches and secular politicians. It is these conservative churches which are often the most rapidly growing denominations in the nation and the most rapidly integrating.
As to the question of whether African American churches will become more or less influential in the future, I think it depends on what happens to the African American community as a whole. As long as that community exists, many people in that community will continue to support black churches of varying political persuasions precisely because blacks have varying political persuasions. The extent to which the African American community will “integrate” into the larger community will determine the future and fate of separate black churches. Right now, given the racial attitudes of both blacks and whites, it is difficult to imagine the African American community completely fading away even as more and more formerly black and formerly white churches slowly integrate their congregations. The eleven o’clock hour on Sunday morning is not as segregated as it was when Dr. King in the early 1960s declared it the most racially separate hour in the United States, but we are still a long way from that hour being completely integrated.
Patrick Inniss: In the recent years, and especially during the recent presidential election, it seems that more than ever many citizens have found it difficult to distinguish the truth from politically inspired lies, a/k/a "fake news." A recent Salon article, however, suggested that the sorts of lies that were spread about the candidates, particularly Hillary Clinton, were essentially similar to the racist propaganda which has been directed against African Americans for centuries and has served as the inspiration for fear, discrimination and harassment. Unfortunately, this new wave of fake news also seems to very often include a racist component such as President Obama's place of birth or fake statistics on African American crime. As a historian, do you see any way to combat this assault on the truth?
Quintard Taylor: I completely agree with the assertion that fake news of today is built on a long history of racist propaganda that placed black people in the worst possible light. Unfortunately, I don’t see fake news going away because it is exceedingly useful to support the agenda of conservatives who for more than 150 years have roiled the political waters with incendiary statements to promote their political ambitions. Think of the anti-Reconstruction Southern Democrats who morphed into the Dixiecrats in the 1940s and 1950s who became the George Wallace supporters in the 1960s and 1970s. If the recently concluded Trump campaign says anything, it clearly demonstrates the continued appeal of this type of rhetoric to considerable elements of the American public.
We challenge fake news by becoming and remaining informed and acting rationally. We continue to think critically, remain skeptical and, most importantly, we fight fake news with the truth. That is what BlackPast.org is all about. I am not so sanguine as to believe that truth will always win, but truth will never win if we fail to use it as our chief weapon against fake news, disinformation, and propaganda.
Patrick Inniss: In 2015 Black Lives Matter became an important movement. This in some ways parallels the protests against lynching in previous decades, but I would like for you to share your thoughts on the relevant historical context of BLM or the reaction to it.
Quintard Taylor: Black Lives Matter (BLM) is undoubtedly the largest grassroots movement to emerge from the African American community since the anti-apartheid campaign of the 1980s. Some even boldly compare it to the civil rights-black power movements of the 1960s. It has successfully awakened the United States to the issue of questionable police violence against civilians and especially deadly force against unarmed African American women and men. Its impact has been felt and acknowledged from the White House to police force headquarters in cities large and small across the nation and it has influenced, as evidenced by countless BLM demonstrations, tens of thousands of people beyond the African American community. I’ve remarked that one is just as likely to see a Black Lives Matter banner in front of a predominately white church as a black church. The movement has also broadened the traditional African American leadership, specifically including gay, lesbian, and transgender people as both strategists and movement foot soldiers. Given the politics of respectability practiced by earlier grassroots movements that either by accident or design silenced such voices, BLM reflects positively how much more inclusive grassroots movements for social justice have become in the early years of the 21st century. This inclusivity is not simply a desire or a goal, it is a central tenet in movement strategy and tactics.
That being said, I do have some concerns about the Black Lives Matter movement. Earlier 20th century movements such as the civil rights movement sought to end racially based discriminatory practices through both the courts and street protests. Black power advocates aimed to wed cultural pride and political activity as a means to challenge fundamental power relationships that excluded African Americans. The 1980s anti-apartheid movement had as its goal pressuring the United States to be more active in ending the last major nation whose political system rested on racial injustice.
The BLM movement so far has been far more effective in focusing on what it is against—the unnecessary use of deadly force again unarmed civilians—as opposed to what it is for. True enough BLM leaders have attempted to broaden their focus to include ideas as disparate as ending bail, acknowledging the lasting impact of slavery, and increased funding for historically black colleges, but the movement remains principally identified with police reform and accountability without necessarily crafting a vision of when and how success in these areas will be achieved. Therein lies the paradox and the central dilemma of Black Lives Matter.
Patrick Inniss: With the end of the Obama administration followed by the election of one of the most racially divisive presidents in recent decades, do you see racism going away anytime soon? Do you have any faith in the eventual achievement of what has been idealistically termed a "post-racial" society?
Quintard Taylor: No, I don’t see racism going away anytime soon. That does not mean we should fail to work for a post-racial society. It may mean we find new allies, reassure those we already have, and work even harder to eradicate racism. I think we have no choice but to continue that struggle even when, or perhaps especially when, events all around us are discouraging. What is the alternative? Allowing others to pull us back into a previous era of racial discrimination and even more racial strife? Those who are truly committed to a post-racial society must not allow setbacks, like the one we are experiencing right now, to deter us from our ultimate goal. History is our teacher. In 1857 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the Dred Scott decision that slavery was theoretically legal everywhere in the United States. Eight years later, and of course after a bloody civil war, slavery was abolished. I think few people in 1857 would have predicted this monumental, even transformational, change at the time.
In the early 1950s segregation was the law of the land not just in the South, but throughout the nation. We often ignore the fact that the Brown Decision in 1954 was in response to segregated schools in Topeka, Kansas, not Alabama or Mississippi. Yet by the early 1970s formal or de jure segregation in schools and discrimination in businesses and other public accommodations were swept away.
I am not predicting that anything similar will happen soon. I am saying that no one can predict the future, and that those who are truly dedicated to the cause of racial justice will continue that struggle regardless of temporary setbacks or discouragement.